12 Days (Day 12)
8 years ago
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24 comments:
First of all...what in the owrld are you doing blogging at 3:45 in the morning? Don't you sleep? If not...they have medicine that will help.
Second of all, I am interested in your reply as we have had this conversation before but were interrupted by our wives that hate to hear us debating, joyfully debating of course. My premise is that he will take all of the babies and young children who had not been saved, AS LONG AS, they have not reached that all elusive age of accountability.
The age of accountability would be that age where the child has rejected the witness of the Holy Spirit and thereby told God, "No, I will not be saved."
My only scripture is one that is very hard to overcome, 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15, He died for all. I believe that when the Lord returns he is going to take the saved and all of those that could not mentally or volitionally choose Christ.
I'll agree with brother Jason. Of course, if there is only one more "coming" or "parousis" of Jesus as one sees in 2 Thess 2:1,8 (or 1-8), then it doesn't take seven years for Jesus to come. 2 Thess 2:9-12 then applies to those who rejected Christ, not those who hadn't yet been "saved". So it goes along with Brother Jason's teaching.
I agree with the assessment of "the kiddos," assuming that all of the unsaved during the millenium are composed of those who survive the wrath of God.
But what about the dogs?? Will all dogs go to heaven? I have had both nice dogs and mean dogs, but then that would be salvation by works...
I may be up until 3:45 AM stressing about this!
1 Cor 15:23 states "Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." The chapter subject is the resurrection. Comparing the coming of the Lord to the Jewish barley harvest, Christ is the firstfruits, the rapture is the main harvest and those saved after the rapture will make up the gleaning.
About the children under the age of accountability - we consider them SAFE not SAVED until they reach the age of accountability. The SAFE involves dying before the age of accountability (like David's baby that died and the unborn children in the wombs of mothers who go in the rapture and are thus unable to live). Those that are SAFE (children not in the mother's womb) will not be included in the rapture as they are not SAVED (under the blood).
I quote Arch Bishop, "About the children under the age of accountability-we consider them SAFE not SAVED until they reach the age of accountability."
What does it mean to be safe? What are they "safe" from? Are mentally retarded individuals also safe? Will God allow those that are not able to make a proffession of faith due to diminished mental capacity (from birth) to go through the Tribulation, or the Great Tribulation? What about the little newborn at our Church...whose family is all saved? When they are raptured...will the newborn be left? I think not...the terms "safe" "the age of accountability" are not biblical terms.
The biblical terminology is that Christ died for all and to quote your Scripture back, 1 Cor 15:23 states "Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." I believe the Lord Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me." For further proof of my argument I refer you to comment #1.
btw...Mike if you are intent on letrting the rabbit's go...you need a dog in the hunt...it's time to post my brother!
Emotion is dangerous to rightly dividing the Word. Anyone can get their emotions high thinking about little children. It is easy to say, "My God wouldn't do that" or "I know what God would do," but do we? If what little Scripture does not clear it up, then we can only go by what God has done. Consider Noah's ark. How many children were on the ark? None. The children who were below the age of accountability died in the flood just like the adults. Those who were below the age of accountability were SAFE, they went to be with God like David's baby. I rest my case.
Ok, I must ask the following question...when did God ever spare a parent from wrath and did not do the same for the children?
2 examples: Noah as you have mentioned...and what about Lot during Sodom and Gomorrah?
What reason do we have for God sparing the lives of these children?
I think I see what you are trying to say, I don't presume to know exactly, but are you saying that all of those under the age of accountability will be left during the Tribulation and when they die they will go to Heaven? The key word is ALL in my question.
I think a distinction needs to be made in Christian families versus lost families at the time of Rapture. The principle of the sins of the Father applies. I will use my family and my 5 year old. I think because of my wife and I and his older brother being spared from wrath to come means that he would fall under the umbrella of being spared himself...see Lot and Noah example from above.
Now for all of the families that are left behind...with small children...if they die during the earthquakes, wars etc during the Tribulation they will go to Heaven when they do because they were still under the age accountability.
Further thoughts?
Big J did you come up with that on your own? Ha! Sounds good and it keeps the actions of God consistent. I just can not fathom God leaving a child her to suffer His wrath when they nor their parents have rejected him to start with. May Children for example. Why would God take their parents and leave them behind take care of themselves. They do not have the ability to do so. Why would He do that to parents who have followed Him by raising them up in the nuture and admonishion of the Lord. I do not think He would do so, but I do agree that he would reward us for living the life that truly proclaims his name and that same reward I believe will be passed down to the Children that have never reached a time in thier lives where they have chosen out right to reject him as their God and refused His salvation.
Let me throw a kink in my own thesis...what about orphans? What about those children who do not have a parental influence around them? Which category do they fall into?
What about the children raised in homes where the parents were saved but never went to Church and taught their children about the Lord (we have plenty of these on our church rolls don't we?)
I am going to be honest that I didn't think of that on my own. After a discussion I shared I wanted to share in that point and it does have some merit...you cannot confuse being taken in the rapture ie delivered from wrath to come versus dying under the age of accountability during the tribulation.
While there may be some children left behind after Rapture if they die without having rejected the witness of the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus, they will go to Heaven.
I still lean towards my frst argument in this post a little that all of those under the age of accountability will be taken but that may just be my emotions getting involved.
Brother Jason,
Not all believe the 7 years tribulation is the wrath to come. Some may believe the wrath is hell, yet others believe the pouring out of the plagues and judgments during the 7 years are the wrath to come. Notice when it mentions who God pours wrath out upon in Revelation, it specifically calls out those who received the mark of the beast, or those who did not repent. Children under the age of accountability apply to neither of those categories, therefore even if they are on earth, they'll not suffer the wrath. Then Jesus comes after the seven years.
Bro. James,
Are you inferring that when a building collapses, during the great earthquake that is so powerful and awesome that nountains crumble and islands disappear, that any child under the age of accountability during the Tribulation will be unscathed?
What is a nountain?
I think maybe Romans 7:9-11 gives us the age of accountability. I go with Big J's first comment, and it may or may not be emotions. When we hear the "Last Trump" sound everyone young or old who have not come to the knowledge of sin (sin revived) will be spared the wrath of God. Why would God suffer those who have not been given the chance to choose to go through such a horrific event.
Brother Jason,
I'm merely saying the wrath of God has only been, is and only will be poured out on lost men. I don't know for sure, but does Revalation claim the natural disasters are part of God's wrath? God may allow certain things to happen, but it doesn't mean he's pouring out wrath. The word wrath is used 13 times in Revelation, and I'll try to cover these briefly.
Revelation 6:16, 17 obviously refers to Christ's millenial reign coming at the end of the tribulation, as the heaven departs and is rolled back as a scroll.
Revelation 11:18 refers to the end of the tribulation when Christ comes back also as we see the time for judgment, after witnesses are raised. Even if you are pre-trib, Christ's 1,000 year reign coming is at the end of the trib.
Revelation 12:12 deals with the devil's wrath.
Revelation 14:8 is the wine of the wrath of the Babylonian whore's fornication.
Revelation 14:9, 10 specifies God's wrath takes place on the lost.
Revelation 14:19 also is on the lost in relation to the preceeding verses.
Revelation 15:1, 7, 16:1, 19 are "upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." All of chapter 16 shows the wrath to be poured out upon the lost men.
Revelation 18:3, again deals with the wrath of Babylon's fornication.
Revelation 19:15 again refers to the battle against the lost.
While God allows children to die in earthquakes even now, I wouldn't say he is pouring out his wrath on 2 year olds, nor does he in the end times. His wrath is poured out only on the lost men. Their children are not lost, so some way or another, he will protect them. Whether that be through a protective shield or through the rapture, he doesn't pour wrath on them. If they die through natural causes, or "side-effects" of the end times and happenings, then He allows it as He does today. He has not changed.
I do, however, agree that he will rapture those who've never rejected Christ at His coming, as well as those who've accepted Him.
Well guys you have really exausted this subject. Will children under the age of accountability, who are living at the time of the rapture,be taken with the saved? As i read through all of the very intelectual comments, from the ABA's most elite--with the exception of the prophet--I come to the conclusion that I had to say something. So please, my brethren, allow me to make a few comments.
Eight months ago I put a 347 stroker moter in my 1991 mustang. It has a B303 cam, which has a274 duration and a 510 lift. The block has been bored 30 over and the holes are stuffed with Probe 10-1 forged pistons. The roller assembly is of course nothing less than Eagle's best. With alluminum heads made by Trick Flow and a matching intake, with the 30 # injectors, cold air and matching mass air flow sensor, my little mustang is pushing about 425 horses at the back tires. I have a P.M.S. (Programmable Engine Managment System). This system allows me to change timing, spark, air flow, fuel--it give me the ability to make it really fast. I have an alluminum driveshaft that is rated up to 800 horsepower. The 373 rearend gears give me the power i need to carry the front of the car the first 10 or 15 feet. If you would like to see my car, or take a ride in it, you can find it at LMBIS every Monday and Tuesday.
Hey Mike what about the races in Dallas?
Well that is about it. Your comments on this subject really motivated me. Keep us the good work guys.
I feel slighted...after reading every number, every abbreviation and getting pumped about L.L.L.'s car knowing there is too be a great point relative to this issue...I get nothing.
Joseph...a nountain is a really big person, place or thing.
James...r u serious? buildings tumble and invisible force fields, right out of star wars, magically appear around babies and toddlers to protect them from being crushed? Then while trapped in the rubble the keebler elves jump out with little cookies and capri suns to keep them fed while rubble is removed.
Seriously, I am not sayingthatthe Lord targets 2 year olds with his wrath but let's face it...beginning on day one of the Tribulation, read Revelation starting in chapter 4, wrath is being experienced on the Earth. It doesn't only get bad after the middle or 3/4 of the way in. The whole thing is wrath being poured out and while these little ones are here (whose to say that somebody won't get pregnant and give birth during the Tribulation? (normal gestation is only 9 months) that means 6 years and 3 months at the time of the Lord's return. Will they get a magic bubble shield? Just kidding, I know what your trying to say...am I being to snide?
No, I've always been and probably always will be snyde.
Bro. James will not always be just Snyde but snyderrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! Bij J had me rolling. I needed that and by the way LLL can I borrow some money. You know just about half the amount you placed within the colt.
well fellas, I guess now we wait for the oracle, mike wilkes, to make his final definitive statements on the issue. Unless of course he decides to open up another can of worms.
I think he's trying to get a higher comment number. I'd say he's topped all others. Well, Brother Mike...?
::Waits patiently::
Hello Brothers
Good subject--Sensative issue
Can we know the true answer to this issue? Can we change the true answer? There are many good aurguments within the comments. I am afraid that each may be as good as the next.
I have never thought much on the subject. I always figured that those under the blood of Christ would go to heaven if they died and those on earth at the pre-tribulation rapture would go with the saved.
There is too much speculating going on in this discussion. Brothers, do the scriptures offer conclusive evidence eihter way? If they do, the answer can be known. If they do not, the answer will remain illusive and can only be speculated as to its truth.
I think about the mentally challenged, while under the blood will Jesus not bring them with the saved or will they go through tribulation. ?Punished because they are mentally challenged?
These are just thoughts. You guys have exausted all the scriptures applicable to this issue. Now we must put them in context and search for the truth. If the truth can be found on this subject.
LLL
PS I have as much in my car as other preachers have in fishing boats, hunting supplies, golf clubs--you get the point.
How come other preachers get the cars, golf clubs and fishing boats? What do I get? Or does it take so many years to get that status?
One day son. One day you will reach the mark but only if you keep striving. Keep I say keep pressing on and the eliteness will one day find its way into your life just as Big J..
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